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Issue 01: Interview



Iñaki Ábalos | Continuity in a Cross-Cultural Practice



对话Iñaki Ábalos:跨文化实践中的“连续性”





Iñaki Ábalos is a Ph.D. in Architecture and Chaired Professor of Architectural Design at the ETSAM since 2002. He was Kenzo Tange Professor (2009) at GSD Harvard University, RIBA International Fellowship 2009 (Royal Institute of British Architects). Professor in Residence in Architecture (2012-2017), and Former Chair of the Department of Architecture at Harvard University Graduate School of Design (2013-2016). He was appointed “Buell Book Fellow” and “Visiting Professor” at Columbia University (New York, 1995), “Diploma Unit Master” at the Architectural Association (London, 1998-2000) and “Professeur Invite“in the EPF Lausanne 1998. He was “Jean Labatute Professor” at the University of Princeton (New Jersey, 2004-2007),“Visiting Professor” at Cornell University (Ithaca, 2007-2008), and Professor at BIArch (Barcelona, 2010-2012).

Abalos+Sentkiewicz AS+ is an international architecture office directed by Iñaki Ábalos and Renata Sentkiewicz.
The projects and built work of Abalos+Sentkiewicz AS+ are internationally recognized, have been subject of 18 individual exhibitions and many collective exhibitions in the most prestigious centres: GSD Harvard, AA-London, Pavillon de l’arsenale-Paris, MoMA- NYC (MoMA has exhibited 5 built works in three different exhibitions: Light construction, ON Site, Groundswell) . This prestige also reflects in the 45 awards received (25 of them first prizes) in architecture competitions. Another 46 awards have been given to different research and design activities, 20 of them to Built Works. Their professional work has been collected in 11 monographs and their theoretical work has been compiled through 14 books. Critic William Curtis has chosen one work of the firm, the Pavilion in the Retiro Park, as one of the three best works built in Spain during the last 30 years.


Iñaki Ábalos © Abalos+Sentkiewicz AS+


Iñaki Ábalos & Renata Sentkiewicz  © Abalos+Sentkiewicz AS+






“I feel a kind of American culture of efficient, the organization of the space, but the efficient in the capitalist mode includes great construction systems, great benefits, and at first sight very attractive icons, shopping malls, and spaces in the last and long term. ”



ChinaGSD: As a European architect, you have done a lot of urban design and public space practice in China over the past decade, what do you think are the similarities and differences between Chinese public space and European public space?

在过去的十年里,作为一名来自欧洲的建筑师,你在中国做了大量的城市设计和公共空间实践,你认为中国的公共空间和欧洲的公共空间有何异同?

Iñaki: It's a good question to begin with. I have to say that I have missed the feelings about the relationship of public space in European countries and in China. Because in somehow I have to say it depends on if we talk about traditional Chinese architecture and cities or contemporary.  My experience in china is very clear. When I'm in all countries and villages, in all parts of Shanghai, also in the fringe, the district or whatever, I really feel in European public space and I see that Chinese people feel OK there, especially in Shanghai. It’s probably the most international and best city that I know. But it was very similar when you go to Beijing or Shenzhen or other cities, the density, the dimensions, the activities on the ground floor etc. can be more dense or more intense, but there are very similar, I feel really comfortable and I know this territory somehow, because although it not the same, it is familiar for me.

When I visited the new districts and the mega blocks, etc, I really feel that there is a huge cultural change in the methodology. Somehow the efficiency of American cities has invaded the methodologies in these new territories in China. What I see the new territories being with has a huge change. Everything in cities is growing at an incredible speed. So when I visit these cities, I really feel in the United States. I feel a kind of American culture of efficient, the organization of the space, but the efficient in the capitalist mode includes great construction systems, great benefits, and at first sight very attractive icons, shopping malls, and spaces in the last and long term.


这是个好问题。不得不说,对于欧洲国家和中国关于公共空间的关系,我还无法给出一个确切答案。因为在某种程度上,这取决于我们谈论的是传统还是当代的中国建筑和城市。我在中国的经历给了我清晰的体会:当我身处城市和村庄,身处上海的各个地方,包括城区和边缘地带,我有时会体验到身处欧洲公共空间中的感受。我看到人们在那些空间里有着很棒的空间体验,尤其是在上海——这可能是我所知道的最国际化、最好的城市。当你去北京、深圳或其他城市时,密度、尺寸、底层活动等也都非常相似。尽管有些地方更密集、更紧凑,但也有非常相似的地方。我觉得这些公共空间令人感到舒适和亲切,尽管它们与欧洲的公共空间并非一致,但对我来说却很熟悉。

然而,当我参观城市新区和大型街区等时,我深切体会到方法论上的巨大文化转变。不知何故,美国城市的效率至上主义入侵了中国这些新的城市空间发展的方法论。我所看到的城市新区发生了巨大的变化,城市中的一切都在以令人难以置信的速度增长。所以,当我参观这些城市时,仿佛身处美国。我感受到了一种美国文化下的高效模式和空间组织。这种资本主义模式中的高效不仅包括乍一看非常吸引人的图标,购物中心,还包含了庞大的建筑系统、巨大的利益,以及城市空间的长远发展计划。


The scale in China has multiplied so much as the American. I don't know if this mythology will survive and be able to create a kind of Chinese mode or the Chinese form of doing things. For me, I don't want to look like nostalgic. I don't mean that the other was better than this. I know that changes are absolutely necessary. I mean many other things like the scale, nation, the needs of cities have changed dramatically. So these changes of scale, technology have a lot of good reasons to be there.

But at the same time I feel that the Chinese culture is much more European than America, like the Chinese way to use public space, it’s not only old man and young kids; everyone is much more similar to a European city or the Mediterranean city, than an American city in the middle of nowhere. That's my doubt, it`s a question mark.


像美国一样,中国的(城市)尺度已经翻了几番。我不知道这样的神话还能否持续下去,去创造一个中国模式或者中式方法。个人而言,我不想被看作一个怀旧的人。我不是说别的就比这强或怎么样。我知道改变是绝对必要的。我是说,很多其他事情比如尺度,国家和城市的需求都剧烈地改变了。所以说这些尺度和技术的改变都有其产生的原因。

但与此同时,我感觉中国文化比起美国,跟欧洲更像一些,就比如中国人使用公共空间的方式。比起美国城市(的居民)每个人都跟欧洲城市或地中海城市中(的居民)更相似一些,不只是老人和小孩。这是我的推测,要打上问号。



“...there is a kind of automatic and way to really give you some clues. This means for us, we don't understand public spaces in some abstraction; we understand it in very physically, in a very social way. We try to really put together knowledge of different disciplines that can inform about design, not only to try to avoid big mistakes. ”




ChinaGSD: A lot of your practice is projects that fall somewhere between architecture and landscape. What are the similarities and differences in the topics and agendas for creating public space? Could an example of (Chinese) practice be given to illustrate this?

你的很多项目都介于建筑和景观之间。它们在创造公共空间的话题和议程上有何异同?能否举个中国的例子说明一下。

Iñaki: We have been able to design and build some our projects in China, especially in Shanghai and the areas around. We have defended a kind of thermodynamic agenda in architecture. What it means is that we are not very technological. What I mean is that thermodynamic means everything is related. The shadow of a tree and the reflection of a glass in the street, every single detail can create a difference in the way we use the space. We have studied in some cities and in some streets, why one side of the street is commercially very active and the other has never had good business there and all of them fail and change every six months.

There is always a way the climate wind, shallow smell, whatever you need, all the facts that involve in the environment of the public space are actively sending messages to you as a user of public space, saying “Go to the left, don't go to the right. Go under the shadow, be careful with this side that is dark and maybe is more dangerous or whatever. So there is a kind of automatic and way to really give you some clues. This means for us, we don't understand public spaces in some abstraction; we understand it in very physically, in a very social way. We try to really put together knowledge of different disciplines that can inform about design, not only to try to avoid big mistakes. So thermodynamic tells you how things will be in terms of comfort. The environmental comfort is not only about climate or temperature or humidity, it's more about how night and day, how reflection of buildings that are just put in there, their sun gains into the street and are affecting you etc. I think this is interesting thing.


我们在中国设计和建造了几个项目,尤其是在上海及周边地区。在建筑设计中我们是“热动力学式议程”的拥护者。这就是说我们不是特别强调技术。所谓的热动力学意味着万物的关联。在我们运用空间的方式中,街道上的任何一处树影,一道玻璃的反光,每一处细节都能创造出不同的体验。我们在一些城市和街道中研究过为什么同一条街的一侧生意兴隆而另一侧经营惨淡,比如店铺六个月就会更换一批。

公共空间的环境信息总是会积极的向用户发送信号,比如告诉用户“向左走,不要去右边”。可能是环境风,也有可能是气味或其他。当走在阴影之下时,因为黑暗可能预示着危险,提防心也会适当的提高。这阐明了总有一种自然而然的方法去影响人的感官。这对我们意味的是,我们并不理解公共空间某些吸引人的元素背后的真正原理;我们只是在空间上简单的理解它。当我们把影响设计的不同学科的知识汇总时,不仅仅只是为了避免基本错误。比如热力学会告知舒适度的指数。环境舒适度不仅仅受到气候,温度或湿度的影响,同时也与日夜变化,建筑物与道路的反射有关。我认为这些十分有趣。


The other thing for in public spaces very important is continuity, which is very simple. More and more we are interested in using the city as a sports field, where we can run, we can work, we can obviously enjoy with our family wherever, but a lot of people nowadays early in the morning walk the city one hour or two hours or 40 minutes. When the sun goes down, it is the very same.

And this area of the continuity for me, it's every time you have in your mental space, every time you have a kind of abstraction, a kind of you have to go up in the stairs because there's a highway very crazy and then you have to go down. That is super frustrating. I you can do it once twice, but sooner or later, you will find another way to go around with avoiding this and it will change your route.


对于公共空间,另外一个非常显而易见的元素则是“连续性”。现在越来越多的人将城市当作活动场地,他们可以在这里跑步,走路,也可以与家人一起在这里做任何事情。比如很多人在早晨或者太阳下山的傍晚会在城市里散步一个到两个小时。这时不同空间的性质是非常相似的。

这就是我所说的“连续性”。它不仅是空间上的,更多是在思维层面的。比如当你上高速时,高速公路非常的拥堵而不得已再下高速是非常令人沮丧的。在一开始你会在这条高速通行一两次,但是不久后当你发现了另一个可以避免它的方法后,你会使用新的路线当作常规路线。



The Flying Spine - Iñaki Ábalos & Renata Sentkiewicz  © Abalos+Sentkiewicz AS+

The Flying Spine  © ZYArch Photography

So that I mean the community is very important and for example, there is an example that you mentioned and which is The Flying Spine, very close to the district of airport of Shanghai, a new Park that is being and made by parts and all the parts of themselves are interesting, but I'm not so well connected as in a conventional, traditional and 18th Century park, like Central Park in New York for sample, they have to make there many highways and trains, obstructions, and we were asked to produce exactly what we call the Flying Spine, a kind of connector for all the elements and when this park finished and I think it's nice, but I think more than that, it is very efficient.

You see flying and you can connect. Whatever it happens that this park allows your views to go from one point to very long. Its width is not that much long, it’s about 1 and, the length is like 6 kilometers. So it's really a good park to walk where you can ride bicycle or to run. So for us, it was very important to not just allow people enjoying the view from above to the park, a beautiful fount of water, etc, but a place more close people to stand, maybe to exercise or maybe to just enjoy the view or have a sandwich or whatever you want to do. So at the same time, we didn't want to make it a highway, to go to run for kilometers, but a space that every 200-300 meters you can stop and exercise, you make whatever your part of the body or if you go with your children or you sit down and explain what is the wasteland of the southern part of the park.

So I think that this is a kind of response to your question. So continuity thermodynamics and again, continuity that I mean straight means kind of a flexible way to move and to enjoy it. What you have seen when you are walking into.


正因为这些,所以我认为社区是至关重要的。举例来说,就像刚才我们聊到的公园,比如上海机场附近的被称为“空中的城市脊柱”的公园。它由一片片零件拼合而成,并且每个零件部分本身又是非常有趣的个体。我不想将他们像18世纪的公园那样,通过一种传统的保守的方式串联起来,就像纽约的中央公园那样,建筑师不得不在公园周围安排大量的高速公路、铁路以及各类障碍。反而在上海的实践中,我们希望并且实现了创造更加纯粹的“空中脊柱”这一目的,并且成功地将它塑造成一个串联身边各色元素的连接器。当公园完工的时候令我们满意的不光是它的形式和表现,还有它所链接的多种功能及诉求,并且给周围的社区生活和交通带来的高效和便利。

所以,正如我所说,架高之后的空间自然就可以完成链接。尽管公园的面宽不长大约6公里左右,但它却可以在任何时候让你看到的景观由近及远无比丰富。所以我认为公园的设计达到了很好的效果,它可以让人们充分享受漫步、慢跑以及骑行的乐趣。对我们来说,设计的目的不仅仅是让人们可以在公园的高处享受远望的景观,宜人的水景等等,更是创造一个适宜人们享受生活的场所,让人们可以驻足,锻炼,享受风景,野餐,总之就是让人们无论在这里做什么都感到无比的惬意。我们想做的不是一个单纯只适合锻炼的跑道,而是希望它成为一个场所,每200-300米便有一处空间值得驻足休憩,在这里人们可以活动身体,享受和自己的孩子一起的时光并给他们讲述公园南侧的废弃土地开发利用的故事。

这是我对你刚才提出的问题的回答。你会发现这个回答仍然是刚才我提到的机制的延续,仍然是我所说的那种通过灵活处置来让使用者得以放松和享受的目标,我们希望人们可以目之所视并且行之所达。



“Icons can be a interesting thing but somehow are not the only thing that are architectures, you have to really create spaces that are comfortable that people want to go there, that they enjoy going there and they have something to do when they are there.”



ChinaGSD: What do you think is the relationship between the form of public space and local culture? How did you respond to the local culture in the context of Chinese culture?

您认为公共空间与当地文化之间应该有什么样的联系?您在中国的项目里是如何回应当地文化的?



Zhuhai Huafa Contemporary Art Museum Design Scheme - Iñaki Ábalos & Renata Sentkiewicz  © Abalos+Sentkiewicz AS+

Iñaki: Give you some clues, I might respond to this with some examples, probably you remember we had won in China the first prize for a competition in Zhuhai. I’d say now, this museum in Zhuhai can exactly explain the way Renata and I understand this.

There's a huge bridge from Hong Kong to Macao-Zhuhai,  Zhuhai is the Chinese part, Macao is the importance in colony, etc. And the longest reaches can come from Hong Kong to this point where to Zhuhai and Macao. At this point, in the side of Zhuhai, we were winning a competition of a museum that could somehow celebrate the bridge, but also could let, this was explained by the mayor to us in a very nice image, people drive or come from Hong Kong to Macao, and instead of just looking to Macao, they could have a view on the beautiful coast of Zhuhai. Because Macao is a super kind of Las Vegas, in versus Zhuhai is some more Mediterranean, I would say beautiful cost. There is a difference but there are also have beautiful things.

I think it was a very kind of interesting proposal for us, but the idea was not only to makes icons. Icons can be a interesting thing but somehow are not the only thing that are architectures, you have to really create spaces that are comfortable that people want to go there, that they enjoy going there and they have something to do when they are there.


也许你还记得我们曾在一个珠海的比赛中获得一等奖。我认为珠海的这个博物馆可以准确地代表Renata和我对这个问题的的理解方式。

从香港到澳门到珠海有一座巨大的桥梁,珠海是中国的一部分,澳门曾经是重要的殖民地。我们赢的博物馆竞赛坐落在这座大桥的珠海一侧,所以这个竞赛向建筑师们提出希望博物馆以某种方式纪念这座桥。当时珠海市的市长用一张很壮观的图片向我们展示这座博物馆的场地—当人们从香港开车到澳门的时候,他们不仅可以看到澳门的天际线,也可以欣赏到珠海沿岸的美丽风景。因为澳门从某种程度上是一个像拉斯维加斯一样的城市,所以与其相比,珠海更具有地中海特色,一个美丽的海岸城市。两座城市各具特色,但都很美丽。

对我们来说这是一个非常有趣的提议:我们不只是需要建造一个地标,尽管设计地标也可以是一件有趣的事情,但地标性并不是这个竞赛里唯一的建筑概念。我们必须创造一个真正舒适的空间,一个人们想去也喜欢去的空间,当他们在那里时,他们是有事情做的。


Zhuhai Huafa Contemporary Art Museum Model © Si Fang Qi Yi Architectural Model Co., Ltd



Zhuhai Huafa Contemporary Art Museum Rendering © Jin Shang Animation

The humid tropical climate, we are in front of the sea, so it was really humid, and we wanted to create a kind of museum, that have patios, outside spaces could be used not just to see paintings, as those characters of public activities, but a place is around a series of patios, and at the same time the roof was a modeling in literary, in order to create a panoramic views at the same time.

Zhuhai is one of the most beautiful cities I have ever seen in China. These constructions are really beautiful, there are carefully detailed in every corner from the airport the center of the city.

So it's quite interesting. The patio had this kind of strength. Let's say trees are a type of umbrella, it is a kind of trees that are giving shadow, but also collecting the humidity and consuming water, hot water and humidity to cold water. So they could refresh and deeply unify the environment of the patio.

Somehow for us, at the same time it was an iconic demand that we had to respond to. And we responded with this, let's say it dramatic and very rhetoric trees. At the same time, they were not just images like in many economies they were machines. They were a kind of the air conditioning system for outdoor spaces that instead of being just a machine making noise, it's a beautiful instructor that is mimicking nature, and at the same time is it could be really efficient, and by the moment this is a response that we have given.


因为珠海的气候是潮湿的热带气候,且这个场地面朝大海,所以我们想设计一个有露台的博物馆。室外的空间不仅可以用来展览作品,而且可以承载公共活动。同时,屋顶的形态是为了根据场地的全景视角形成的。

珠海是我在中国见过的最美的城市之一。从珠海机场到城市中心的各个角落,这些露台的构造都十分美观且细致入微。

所以,露台能有如此大的能量是值得关注的。我们假定树是一种伞。他们提供了树荫,也同时可以吸收湿气且摄取水分,不论是热水、湿气还是冷水。所以,他们可以深度整合露台的环境并使其不断更新。

同时,对于我们来说,我们也需要达成对露台环境标志性设计的诉求。而这些露台上的梦幻且极具装饰性的“树”,就是我们给予的答复。但与此同时, 他们并不是万千经济体中机械化的美学剪影。他们是一种室外的空气净化系统,而不是一个只会发出噪音的机器。他们是仿生自然的美观引领者,也同时是高效节能的。这就是当下我们给出的答复。




Zhuhai Huafa Contemporary Art Museum in Construction  - Iñaki Ábalos & Renata Sentkiewicz  © Abalos+Sentkiewicz AS+

It was constructed partially, and now the governor is a different one and it has been changed from a local museum to a national museum. But it has to be in the stop at the same time the construction. So we are crossing our fingers and waiting to the moment when it could be finished. In the day, more than 50% of the mass of the building is made.

Anyway, this is a good example for me to know how do we think that in the Chinese culture we can act in the Chinese culture at the same time responding to the demands of some contemporary iconic, the strength of images and the same time being serious about the issues that architecture, a traditional architecture and contemporary architecture should be given to the public, as I meant, comfort, pleasant and shadows, beautiful, let's say, places where to look to the surroundings. All these things that really give you some of attraction and your families the need of coming back every year, this kind of things not every week, but at least when your kids are growing and it is different to be submission when you are 4 years and then you have 7 years when you're 20 years or maybe 15. And then I think that is important that this is place can be attracted for a kid and for someone that is an adult.


这个博物馆目前只建成了一部分。由于上级领导的更换,这个原本地方性的博物馆变成了国家级的博物馆,施工也被同时搁置。所以,我们正祈祷并等待这个建筑落成的那一时刻。如今,超过50%的建筑体块已经建成。

无论如何,这对我来说是一个很好的机缘,可以让我去了解,在中国文化中我们该如何思考建筑并施展自我。同时,我们对当代建筑视觉力度的诉求给予了答复,也能严肃地看待建筑中存在的问题。传统和当代的建筑需要回馈公众,正如我所说的,他们是舒适、愉悦、荫凉、美观且可以观赏周围景观的地方,所有的这一切都吸引着你和你的家人每年故地重游。虽然这些情形并不会每周发生,但至少当你的孩子从4岁长到7岁,甚至15或20岁,故地重游的感受都会有所不同。所以,我认为这个博物馆对不于同年龄,无论是从小孩到成人的吸引力是至关重要的。



“At the same time, we were able to create a kind of very conventional and somehow a religious spaces that could give you the image of religious space, at the same time it had this kind of more funny, more easy way to enter into the church or to be around, which is going up to the roof and going down and entering inside, etc.”



ChinaGSD: Monumental architecture is an important bearer of public activities. Churches from the West are an import to China, and traditionally monumental Chinese public spaces, such as temples and ancestral shrines, have their own unique spatial prototypes and paradigms. How did you position this public space in your design for the New Bund Church? And how does it work? What difficulties and challenges have been overcome?

纪念性建筑是公共活动的重要承载平台。在中国的教堂是从西方引进的,同时中国许多传统的纪念性公共空间,比如寺庙、祠堂等,都具有它们自己独特的空间特点和案例。我们想问一下,在新外滩教堂的设计中,您是如何定位这个公共空间的?您的设计又是如何结合这个公共空间的呢?设计的过程中克服了哪些困难和挑战?



New Bund District Church © ZYArch Photography

Iñaki: Again, it was another curious commission. The built church is new and is close to the airport of Shanghai, and it`s in an international business district for people from European or other countries. So there are confidence in coming for business or whatever and the authorities wanted to create a kind of an environment that they could feel well-received, having schools that are European, Christian churches, whatever, which is a very curious thing. I know the difficulties of the Christian churches in China. I'm in the political issues, etc.

So this church is interesting because of this kind of attempting of, I would say, “let's behave all of us properly, we want you to be happy here.” And the authorities of the Pudong district were a very fond of architecture.  And they had ordered an architect who was from Australia or New Zealand, they made a first idea of a church, but it was horrible. It looks exactly the opposite; it likes a house for a monster. It looks really unfortunate in Shanghai. And the authorities said no way, we cannot do this because the effect. We cannot invest in this because the affect will be exactly opposite to the welcoming of people.

Someone there around the authorities seen the Pudong district said why don't you call those European? Renata is Polish, I am Spanish, and Spain is the most catholic and the most Christian countries in Europe, probably they will know how to manage the situation. And then they asked us if we were able to propose. I said Ok, I mean why not?


其实是这样的,这是一个很有特点的项目。这个新建的教堂靠近上海机场,它处在一个国际商业区,平时会有许多欧洲或其他国家的人在这里做生意,所以甲方希望将这个地区打造成一个多文化的地区,让来自不同国家的人能感受到亲切感,同时有欧洲风格的学校,以及基督教的教堂等等,我知道基督教教堂在中国偶尔会与政治相关,所以我认为这是一个非常有特点的区域。

我觉得这个教堂很有意思的点在于,它是对中国西方教堂本土化的一种尝试,这个教堂是为了将快乐带给信仰基督教的人们而建造的。同时浦东新区的政府觉得建筑是一种很好的媒介,他们曾经邀请了一个来自澳大利亚或者新西兰的建筑师参与这个教堂的概念设计,但是设计风格不符合政府的要求。他们当时讨论道,那个设计与他们想要的风格刚好相反,像一个怪物的房子,与上海的风格完全不搭边。

最后理所当然,政府没有批准那个概念设计,他们不能接受那个设计会为上海带来的负面影响,同时他们认为那个设计不会将亲切感带给信仰基督教的人们。

之后浦东新区的政府讨论道,为什么不邀请来自欧洲的设计师参与教堂的设计?Renata是波兰人,我是西班牙人,西班牙是欧洲天主教、基督教氛围最浓厚的国家之一,他们认为我们也十分了解如何设计教堂,于是他们问我们是否可以参与设计,我思考后同意了,这么好的机会为什么不呢?

New Bund District Church © ZYArch Photography

We began to think about the place; compared to the whole New Bund area it is super small. I think it was an interesting point there; it is in a park at side of a river in the Shanghai. It is a beautiful and really well finished park. And so it's an entrance, and it’s a very narrow plot because underground the metro line passes very close to the land, so it was a kind of spaghetti shape. We studied carefully the ugly project of the previous architects, trying to understand why the church authorities like it. So we wanted to balance the needs of these people, the people that will be running the church, and the authorities in need of some image.

This was the key for us, because they were really confronted; they were really in a bad situation. So if we don't give both something, we will be killed, nothing will be happen.

Somehow we were able to accept the scheme; a functional scheme was not that bad. It was divided in two parts; in some part the things are most religious. I would say why don't we make the entrance to the park between both parts and we create a kind of continuity among both and with the park. The main idea was to connect everything and to use a stair that goes up to the roof, and the roof as a connector with the park and the connector of the two parts.


我们开始思考这个地方,和整个新外滩地区相比,它的面积非常小。我觉得这里有一个很有意思的点,它出处在上海的一个河边美丽的,完成度很高的公园的入口区,是一个非常狭窄的地块,形状有点像意大利面条,因为地铁路线离场地非常近。我们仔细研究了以前建筑师做的不好看的项目,试图了解为什么教会喜欢它。我们想平衡这些教堂的管理者和政府官员的需求,其中政府官员们想要建立良好的形象。

这是我们设计的关键,因为他们的关系存在对立,并且互不相让。所以如果我们不能让双方的需求都得到满足,我们的设计就没办法实现。

不知为何,我们能够接受给出的重视功能性的初步方案设想。它被分为两部分,其中一部分具有宗教性。我就想,我们为什么不把公园的入口设在两部分之间,为这两部分和公园之间创造一种连续性呢?于是,主要的构思就是把所有的东西都连接起来,用楼梯连上屋顶,屋顶则作为与公园及这两个部分的连接点。




New Bund District Church © ZYArch Photography

We said, many of the most famous churches in Europe, I mean, the Milan cathedral that you can go up and see the whole city of Milan in Italy, It's a beautiful roof, or the Notre dame in Paris where you have the caracole and you have all the monsters, it's very well known. Why don't we make this a kind of green roof and extension of the park with a smaller auditorium where weddings or other ceremonies could happen in good weather? And the idea came along and we drew the stair and the continuity of the roof. When we had the meeting presenting with both authorities and the church authorities, I was explaining this in showing images, I saw the faces of both the people of the church and the authorities are smiling and said “Okay, that's it.”

At the same time, we were able to create a kind of very conventional and somehow a religious spaces that could give you the image of religious space, at the same time it had this kind of more funny, more easy way to enter into the church or to be around, which is going up to the roof and going down and entering inside, etc.

Then the other thing that was interesting for us was the space itself, the interior space. I mean, churches from very long times ago have to have a kind of idea of, what I think the real religious space is, how do you feel or want to feel inside the space that is where you communicate with the spiritual goddess or spiritual ideas.

It was very narrow. I know this; we really know the Christian religion and rituals. It was too narrow to have a kind of a significant space, at the same time, it needed to have, like almost 1500 people room. So it was very big. This may depend on hybrid of a liner likes a gothic space that is very linear, very longitudinal, and a kind of auditorium with messoning, a half of a messoning, is an L shape messoning that increases the amount of people that can be there, but also use a kind of sensation of being in an auditorium. Because a lot of time in churches you sing or people sing and so it has the ritual, it's very musical. So we wanted it to be a kind of review on a traditional auditorium space. It works, although it could work better acoustically because we couldn't really finalize what we wanted to do, because of the game of money issues, but it really works with the people of atelier, it is really important for the acoustics.


许多欧洲最著名的教堂,比如米兰大教堂,你可以到美丽的屋顶俯瞰意大利米兰的整个城市,再比如非常有名的巴黎圣母院,那里有神像和怪物。那我们为什么不把这里打造成一个绿色的屋顶和公园的延伸,再加上一个小型的礼堂,在天气好的时候可以举行婚礼或其他仪式?于是我们画了楼梯和连续的屋顶。当我们与教堂管理者和政府官员开会介绍时,我在展示图片时解释了这一点,我看到教会的人和政府官员都在微笑,并说:"好,就按这样做。"

与此同时,我们能够创建一种非常传统的、给予你一种宗教意味的宗教空间。它使用了这种更好玩、更轻松的方式进入教堂,也通过上升到屋顶然后下降并进入内部的方式,让教堂周围更加有趣。

接下来,对我们来说有趣的另一件事是空间本身,即室内空间。我的意思是,在很久很久以前,教堂都必须有一种概念。这也是我所认为的真正的宗教空间,即你在与精神上与神交流或冥想时,能感受到的或想感受的。

它非常的狭窄。我们对基督教宗教和仪式非常了解。它太过狭隘而无法拥有一个显著的空间;但与此同时,它也需要拥有一个能容纳近1500人的房间。所以它是很大的。这可能取决于线性空间的混合,例如纵向空间很长的哥特式空间,以及一种带有斜边的礼堂(斜边的一半)。这是一种L形的斜边,它可以增加在场的人数。我们也可以通过创造一种在礼堂里的感觉(来让空间显得更大)。因为很多时候人们在教堂中歌唱,所以它不仅具有仪式性,而且非常有音乐性。因此,我们希望它成为对传统礼堂空间的一种回顾。它的确做到了这点。尽管它在声学上可以有更好的表现,但因为由于经费问题,我们无法真正完成我们想完成的。但是它确实适用于(习惯了)工作室的人们。对于声学而言,这确实很重要。



New Bund District Church © ZYArch Photography

This is still being tested. It's given to the authorities of the church, but the people in the neighborhood still haven’t entered to live there, so they are testing for the new incomers, the European and American wherever they will come from, the whole thing will enter into real activity, so we cross fingers.

We are very happy with this church, it was very cheap and at the same time very monumental and very attractive, new people when they go there, they want to enter there, they want to make them a part of this, it is such a monumental thing, it is exactly positive, it is inviting you to visit.


它仍在测试中。尽管我们已经把它交给了教堂的主管部门,但是附近的人们仍然没有真正进入并使用它,因此他们正在测试新的来客。无论他们来自哪里,欧洲或美国,整个事情都会变成现实中的活动。所以我们持续祈祷着。

我们对这个教堂很满意,它造价低廉但又不失纪念性,非常有吸引力。每当有新的人们去到那里, 便有进入和融入建筑的愿望——如此积极而富于纪念性, 它始终在向你发出邀请。



“I think that there is a kind of need of alternatives. And for me this alternative can come from a more serious way to the city, a more technical weight and sensitivity, being efficient, being graduating way, it likes a symphony, a symphony can have a melody, it can have a fortissimo in one moment, you cannot have fortissimo in every single five second because it's noise.”



ChinaGSD: As China's urbanization process slows down, urban construction begins to shift from incremental to stock. New commercial complexes, cultural landmarks and other projects are decreasing, the transformation of small urban spaces into acupuncture and old industrial sites are increasing, and community services are becoming more accessible. In this new practice context, what do you think the characteristics of public space should be? You also won the bid for the Yangpu Bridge Park project along with Shanghai's urban renewal process. How does the design present the core concept of publicans that you just mentioned? Which aspects to focus on?

随着中国城市化进程的放缓,城市开始从增量建设向存量建设转型。新的商业综合体和文化地标等项目正在减少,小微尺度的城市空间针灸和老工业场所的转型正在增加,社区服务变得更加易得。在这种新的实践语境下,您认为公共空间的特征应该是什么? 您还赢得了上海城市更新进程中杨浦大桥公园项目的竞标,这个设计如何体现您刚才提到的公共性的核心概念?我们应该关注哪些方面?

Iñaki:  Whatever was the case, everything was iconic. Now everything is all industrial. It’s too radical. It’s really like too drastic. I remember the President talked about normality and criticizing architectures that were too iconic, and honestly I agree with this critic but at the same time, I think that the interpretation of this critique of the President was too radical and too naïve. He says from hundred percent to no percent at all, it could be 40 or 30% or whatever. It’s too dramatic and there is no need, I think that the critical he says was serious. You can agree, you can make everything an icon, very single project and they should be in many cultures, not only in European countries.

There are the palaces, the religious or civil or whatever, and they all celebrate moments in history and they organize the city and you move around when you go through this to that. Now, in every single country you have something that is a kind of explosion of form that creates. One by one can be interesting in Instagram, and working in the city. They are really unfortunately and many of they are aggressive and there's no need for all shopping mall to have the shape of a dragon on eating you. It's too much, it’s too much, it is in express and it is inefficient.

Said that, I think that partially this is happening because, I don't know exactly why I am worried because there is a kind of obsession, a competitive obsession among the United States and China. They are competing both countries and it's very clear when you see the newspaper when Trump is saying and when your president is saying they are it's a kind of…go like this. And I think that there is a kind of need of alternatives. And for me this alternative can come from a more serious way to the city, a more technical weight and sensitivity, being efficient, being graduating way, it likes a symphony, a symphony can have a melody, it can have a fortissimo in one moment, you cannot have fortissimo in every single five second because it's noise.


无论如何,一切都是图像化,符号化的,当然也都是工业化的。这太激进,太极端了。我记得习主席关于常态的观点以及对建筑太过符号化的批判。坦白的说,我同意他的观点,但同时我认为外界对主席观点的解读太过激进和幼稚。他说从100%到完全没有,但可以是40%或30%或其他。这太戏剧化了,也没必要。我认为他所给予的批评是严肃的。你可以认同并把所有东西都变成一个图标或一个单独的项目,它们应该出现在许多文化中,而不仅仅是在欧洲国家。

这些符号有宫殿的,宗教的,公民的,等等,它们都是历史上某一时刻的庆典纪念碑,它们将城市组织起来,人们在它们之间四处走动、穿行。现在,每一个国家都有一些爆炸式创造出的形式。一个接一个在Instagram上有趣的呈现,并在城市里发挥着作用。不幸的是,它们很多都富于攻击性,没有必要将所有的商场都塑造成龙的形状来吃你。很明显,这实在是过分了,而且效率低下。

说到这里,我觉得这种现象的产生部分是因为,美国和中国之间有一种特殊的情结,一种竞争性的痴迷。这两个国家在相互竞争,在报纸上你可以读到特朗普的讲话,也可以读到中国的主席的讲话,就可以很明显地意识到这一点。我认为中国的城市建设需要替代方案。在我看来,替代方案可以来自一种更严肃地对待城市的方式,它是一种更具技术性与敏感度、更高效和渐进的方式,就如同交响乐一样,它有特定的旋律,旋律中的某个地方会出现强音,但不能每隔5秒就出现强音,这样就会变成噪音了。


Yangpu Bridge Area Riverside Development - Iñaki Ábalos & Renata Sentkiewicz  © Abalos+Sentkiewicz AS+

You can have an orchestra, a kind of a human symphony. And this is, I think that we have been trying to do. I mean I'm not so proud of myself as we have done both. But we in this Yangpu Bridge Area that we won the competition of 2 million m² of commercial space, a half million are of historical buildings. It is historical for China, they made in the seventies in the last century. That in Spain is contemporary, but in China is historical. There are beautiful buildings, the industrial buildings in the river front, and there are a ferry station, metro station, bus station, all kind of transportation means.

I think that it was very complex and we wanted to do orchestrate, we use some European paintings of violence to understand how to organize the complexity of fingers that we have ways to pay some problems, it was one of the clues that we found, and at the same time, we were thinking not only in proposition or Victorian in terms of the master plan, and we were also thinking again in thermodynamic terms as a series of five systems: the knowledge system that is on the new offices, the green system and the water system in the riverfront, the memory system of the all the testimony that was there, and how to create loops of interchanging them, and a kind of circularity that keeps them work.

So, all of these subsystems could benefit from being posted to all kind of spaces, and creates some degree of complexity without losing a sense of order or orientation. Once you enter, you can really understand very quickly how to work. We have won this competition. We are now with Atelier + and the Tongji University Design Institute, we are trying to organize many significant requires of so many authorities and so many departments. It’s coming.


城市也是类似,它可以看作一个管弦乐队,一种由人构成的交响乐。这就是我们一直努力在做的,但现在我还不算特别满意。在杨浦大桥片区,我们赢得了这个200万㎡的商业空间的竞赛,其中50万㎡是历史建筑。它们在中国算是历史建筑,是上个世纪70年代修建的,而在西班牙的话却属于当代建筑。这些河畔的工业建筑非常美丽,有轮渡站、地铁站、公交站等各种交通建筑。

这个项目非常复杂,我们想要像编排管弦乐一样组织建筑,我们用到了一些欧洲的暴力主题的绘画来试图理解如何组织复杂的建筑,如何解决一系列问题,这是我们找到的一个线索。同时,在总体规划层面,我们的思考方式不仅是通过个人提议,而是用热力学的方式进行系统性思考,把整个项目看作五个系统:办公区的知识系统、滨河区的绿化系统和水系统、与历史建筑遗存相关的纪念系统等。我们希望创造一个将它们连通起来的循环,一个维护所有系统的流线体系。

因此所有的分支系统都可以在不同空间中相互辅助受益,在一定程度上创造了多功能多元素性,同时也保证了整体的结构的条理清晰秩序井然。待进入后,访客便可以非常快速地了解整体的运作方式。在这场竞赛中我们获得了胜利。我们正与Atelier +事务所以及同济大学设计学院共同合作,合并多方要求以及整合多部门。不久后便会呈现给大众。


Yangpu Bridge Area Riverside Development Rendering © Jin Shang Animation

We are trying to organize the main things through the green system, which is the central one and is the one that really express and give it continuity, and I think that it can be a kind of interesting response. I mean I hope that authorities understand that the point of this project is to make them a patrimony benefit from the green system, the green system from the intermodal transportation system, the intermodal transportation system from the knowledge system, the water system and all of them can create a kind of area of the city where these five systems create a kind of harmony, in the way they mix and create the scenario for the other.

Let's see, it's a very ambitious project, at least very beautiful. It's very close to the center of the city and in the river, under them one of the most important branches of the city. Let's say if the authority are able to understand that this is a key point of this. And I agree that this really ambitious, it can become a kind of equilibrate way to think about this kind of, let's say, contraposition, the restoration of the all against the iconic. It's exactly opposite of this. This goes with these merges quite well, and all the systems benefits from each other.


我们正在尝试通过绿化景观系统贯穿并管理整体架构,绿化景观系统可作为核心系统,也是真正被赋予连续性的系统,个人认为将会是一个有趣的回应。我希望当局理解此项目是从绿化景观系统中创造可持续受益的角度,从绿化系统到运输系统,从运输系统到联合的知识学术系统,再到水联运系统中受益可以打造一个属于城市的区域,在这五个系统之间相互混合并创建一种场景的和谐。

放眼过去,这是一个非常艰巨且雄心勃勃的项目,至少呈现的非常漂亮。它靠近城市中心和河流,在项目的下方是城市最重要的分支之一。假设当局是否能够理解这也是关键点。我同意这确实雄心勃勃,它可以作为一种平衡的思考方式,比如说在遇到对立,还原所有事物。与此相反的场景中。这些都会被很融洽的合并,所有系统都从彼此中受益。



“This is a wonderful tale to understand the moment, that we will all have an new efficient engene and everyone on this hopeful world will get along with all the countries of the world and not only for the rich ones. It will take minutes to forget.”



ChinaGSD:  How does the epidemic we are facing right now change the relationship between people and cities? What will public space look like in the post-epidemic era? What role can architects play in this situation?

我们现在面临的疫情对人与城市之间的关系造成了怎样的改变?后疫情时代的公共空间会是什么样子?在这种情况下,建筑师可以扮演什么角色?

Iñaki: Let me put my crystal ball like a magician. I have to say a couple of things, not too many. First of all, I have to say that the skeptic about the all these profits of radical changes come in. Instagram is full of problems in this ways, of profits, of new ideas of cities and whatever. I know we have in Spain, I don’t know if you know, I have in Spain a place there is excavated the most ancient of humans in the world. I mean, there is a huge place where a lot of people were living millions and millions of years ago, and this kind of dialect of which is said paleontology. There is a Professor dedicated to this activity that is very famous in Europe, and few weeks ago he was asked the same you ask me. He said I know that a lot of people are inventing new idea and new proposals, but there forgot something very important is that the capacity of forgetting of the humankind is the most important quality for surviving. I mean the humans are able to survive because they forget immediately when they suffer.

It is in My God. It's true, I mean, the Second World War, a couple of days after millions of people were dead, Americans were making peace with Japanese people, and trying to reconstruct Europe with the Germans. And nowadays the big Germans and Japanese have a kind of a lot of development and they are integrated, and you have forgotten disasters as horrible as the Second World War. So this is why we survive. So it's history, it’s just another thing, it is completely indifferent.


让我预测一下。简而言之,首先我不得不说部分人会开始怀疑巨大变化产生的好处。Instagram在这方面充满了问题,充满了利润,充满了新的城市理念等等。我不知道你是否知道,我知道在西班牙有一个地方挖掘出了世界上最古老的人类。我的意思是,那里有一个巨大的地方,几百万年前有很多人住在那里,研究这些的被称为古生物学。

有一位教授致力于这项在欧洲非常著名的活动,几周前他被问到了你问我的同样的问题。他说,我知道很多人都在提出新的想法和新的提议,但有一点很重要,那就是人类的遗忘能力是生存最重要的能力。我的意思是,人类之所以能够生存下来,是因为他们在遭受痛苦后会马上忘记。

确实,例如第二次世界大战,在数百万人死亡的几天后,美国人与日本人和解,并试图与德国人重建欧洲。如今,德国和日本有了巨大的发展,互相帮助发展,人们已经忘记了像第二次世界大战这样可怕的灾难。这就是我们能够生存下来的原因。所以历史只是另一件完全不同的事。


Cortázar is one of very famous Argentine writer, passed away a couple of decades ago, who wrote wonderful text and there is one very famous that is “the Southern Highway”, the highway of the south. I don't know what it was in English, and this told about the traffic jam in Paris, in the south of Paris. A traffic jam that paralyzes the highways for, I don't know a week or so. And then everyone in the cars, be in need to have a kind of relationship with the other in the car in front or the other, and they need to find food, they need water, they need toilet whatever, and they organize themselves in life. They need to have friendly relationships, all kind of relationships, love, affairs, and everything. The tale is very short, but it's very beautiful. And the whole, let's say, civilization begins to be constructed and you see new system inside these cars, everyone is in their cars, but they are related too. And then suddenly, one day it begins to move.

When they begin to move, the car system will be in parallel, one and two have to speed with the others. And you lose your friend and your enemy goes away and you don't recognize anyone. And in 20 minutes, the whole construction of new ideas has disappeared completely. Everyone has to go home and that's it.

This is a wonderful tale to understand the moment, that we will all have an new efficient engene and everyone on this hopeful world will get along with all the countries of the world and not only for the rich ones. It will take minutes to forget. This is my opinion, because it's the humankind, I mean this is the mentality of humans. I mean, I we need to survive and we need to forget. This is one thing.


Cortázar是一位非常著名的阿根廷作家,他在几十年前去世了,他写了很多精彩的作品,其中非常著名的是《南方公路》(“the Southern Highway”)。我不知道用英语怎么说,这是关于巴黎南部的一场交通堵塞。这次堵塞使高速公路瘫痪,可能有一个星期左右。然后每个在车里的人,都需要和周围别的车里的人建立一种关系,他们需要找到食物、水、厕所等等,他们需要自己组织起生活,需要形成友好的关系,各种各样的关系,爱情,风流韵事,以及一切。故事很短,但很美。可以说,整个文明开始建立,你会看到这些车之间有一个新的系统,每个人都在自己的车里但又互相关联。

突然有一天,汽车开始移动了。他们刚开始移动时,汽车系统还是平行的,然后一个、两个不得不开始加速。你失去了你的朋友,你的敌人也消失了,你谁也不认识了。在20分钟内,整个建构的新系统就完全消失了。每个人都得回家,仅此而已。

这是一个很好的故事让我们理解现在发生的事情,我们将拥有一种新的高效的时代,在这个充满希望的世界上的每个人都将与世界上所有的国家和睦相处,而不仅仅是富裕的国家。忘记需要几分钟。这是我的观点,因为这是人类的心理。我是说,我们要活下去,就需要忘记。这是一件事。



But the other response much more quick than this one, but this is good. I mean you have to read this Highway. It is a wonderful lesson of history. And the other one is one word, it is adaptation. As architects we need to know, we need to think about what has not worked well and how can we make it work better.

For example, residences for the elderly, the elderly in Spain lives in huge residences, in big hotels, I can say. What is it when the epidemic entered where are not doctors not medical care? We have a lot of dead people in residences for the elderly, a lot of deaths, it's a crime; it's a crime, a lot of them have passed away.

So, this I mean, they say doctors should come. I say no, we have to change the typology. We have to change it. I mean, can we put them like 3000 together? Or we can make pavilions and so if someone is sick, we can isolate this pavilion or these 20 people, and the rest can survive. This is a kind of typological problem, is very clear. This is what I said.


相对于反馈性来说,接下来我要阐述的一点是比我之前提到的那点更快更好的。首先你必须去读《南方高速公路》这个文章,这是历史给我们很精彩的一课。另一点是一个词,“适应性”。作为建筑师,我们需要了解和思考哪些地方做得不好,而且我们将如何做得更好。

拿老年人的住宅举例子,西班牙的老年人住在大公寓里,大酒店里。当流行病进入这种既没有医生也没有没有医疗服务的地方,将会发生什么事情?在老人公寓里有很多人饱受痛苦,这是一种犯罪;又有很多人因此而死去,这是更是一种犯罪。

所以我的观点是,很多人说医生应该来关照这些老人,但是这不是问题的所在,我们需要改变居住的类型。我们必须改变它。我的想法是,我们是否能把3000个老人安排在一起?或者我们可以做些亭子,如果有人生病了,我们可以把这些亭子或者这20个人隔离起来,剩下的人就可以活下来。这是一种类型学问题,很清晰。这便是我的观点。



So instead of changing the form of the city which is very improbable, I think that we have to focus on what has worked badly, and how can we prove it as architect, because we have tools to improve and to make more niceties. But only we think the scale of means seeing a problem and resolving it, not to try and to change the city from one day to the other. This is my last response.


总而言之,改变城市的形式形态是非常不可能的,我认为我们应该关注那些做的不好的地方,用建筑师的方式去证明它,因为我们有能力来改进和创造更多美好的环境。我们需要思考在相应的尺度上来看问题和导致问题产生的原因,而不是试图在几天之内改变城市。这是我最后的论点。



“I think that we have to focus on what has worked badly, and how can we prove it as architect, because we have tools to improve and to make more niceties. But only we think the scale of means seeing a problem and resolving it, not to try and to change the city from one day to the other.”





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Interview:

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Shi


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